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- By guvsc1200 Date 13.12.14 17:55
Just read the details for the proposed Ultra Low emission Zone in London

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/environment/ultra-low-emission-zone

From what I can see any motorbike over 13 years old in 2020 will have to pay £12.50 EVERY DAY!!!

Now considering the C1 ceased production in 2003 that will apply to all C1's, I'm going to write in requesting the c1 be exempt as it only produces 66g of CO2 per km and is the safest way to ride a motorbike in Central London. Considering the C1 was mainly aimed at City travel I do not see why we should be forced to pay as there are no alternative vehicles at present. BMW never seemed to develop the C1-E....
Parent - By HelmetHair Date 13.12.14 18:52
Depends if the C1 meets Euro 3

Can't find that on my phone at the mo.
anyone know if the C1 is compliant?
Parent - By guvsc1200 Date 14.12.14 13:02
That's what I thought but then saw the 13 year limit so I presume that means the C1 rider will have to pay regardless of Euro 3 emission levels
Parent By HelmetHair Date 14.12.14 15:44
Not how I read it.
The 13 year ref is the age of a vehicle if it was registeredy in 2007, 13 years before 2020.
Does the C1 meet euro 3?
Anyone?
Parent - By C1ive Date 14.12.14 21:09 Edited 15.12.14 21:17
http://transportpolicy.net/index.***?title=EU:_Motorcycles:_Emissions

Replace the stars with p h p

If I'm reading this correctly, the C1 isn't compliant with Euro 3 limits if it produces 66g of CO2/km.
Parent - By HelmetHair Date 14.12.14 21:34 Edited 14.12.14 21:56
Is that CO or CO2?

See here:
http://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1

C1 is euro 3 compliant, apparently, so no problem.

Edit: Anyone got the handbook to hand? Is that in it?
Parent - By guvsc1200 Date 14.12.14 23:50
I'll check my handbook tomorrow but still confused if they mean that to comply it must be no older than 13yrs?
Parent By guvsc1200 Date 15.12.14 10:10
Nothing in the handbook as far as I can see
Parent - By guvsc1200 Date 16.12.14 09:05
Thanks for the link, looks like the emission level is 5.5g per km!
Parent By HelmetHair Date 16.12.14 11:54 Edited 16.12.14 14:54
....loving the optimism that the govt will care about a dozen 18 year old C1s in London!
How many "r" reg bikes do we see in westminster now? (18 years old)
:-)
Parent By HelmetHair Date 13.07.18 19:40
French site says it produces 0.8 g per km
Parent By Mad_Accountant Date 13.12.14 19:45 Edited 15.12.14 11:09
When the City of Westminster introduced charges for parking in their bike bays I resolved never again to work in London, not by train or bike.

If this goes ahead I shall dramatically reduce my visits to the place.

Having said all that, when I visited Beijng (and cruised the Yangsze river) a couple of years ago it was impossible to see the sky (or indeed much of the scenery) because of the smog. Preventing that happening in London has to be a good cause.

I suspect MAG will be hard onto this one (I hope some of you are members? )
Parent - By rockstedy Date 13.12.14 21:00
Time to fill petition. If bikes participate less than <1% for overall pollution it is very nasty to charge scooter users for entry!
Parent By guvsc1200 Date 14.12.14 13:06
Just heard on the radio the consultation closes on the 9th January.. So if any object please write in Soon.
Parent - By guvsc1200 Date 14.12.14 15:45
I have just completed the consultation only took 10 minutes to fill out via the link on the consultation page above..
Here is a copy of the message I attached, feel free to copy and alter as needed so we can have our voice heard!

Dear sir/madam,
I have read the proposals for the Ultra low emission zone and see that I being the owner of a BMW C1 200cc scooter which was first registered in 2002, I would be liable to a £12.50 daily charge. I use my scooter as a relatively clean (66g per km co2 emission) and a safe, economical way to travel to my work place in central London. This scooter ceased production by BMW in 2003 so I have no alternative vehicles available which would give me the same convenience & safety travelling into London, being a father of 4 children this is paramount to me, this vehicle being a scooter causes negligible congestion and negligible pollution. Any other vehicle would not match the safety of a C1 and if I used an electric car it would just add to the congestion in London and cost more to park every day. Any other scooter/motorbike would not offer the same safety the BMW C1 offers...
The proposed daily charge of £12.50 would cost me over £3000 per year, an alternative electric car would cost more than that to park alone, traveling by public transport would cost around £3,500 per year.
With this in mind I request this vehicle be classed as exempt from the proposed charge.
Yours sincerely
Parent - By scootercommuter Date 09.03.17 17:48
Hi all,

Resurrecting a dead thread from a few years ago but the London ULEV hasn't gone away - will come into force in a couple of years.

Did anyone ever work out for sure if the C1 is Euro 3 emissions compliant or not?  The CO2 emissions level for the bike suggest not but a few things online say it is. I've tried asking BMW Motorrad Park Lane, who said they'll check but not holding my breath for a reply.
Parent - By HelmetHair Date 10.03.17 12:30
co2 or co?
Parent By scootercommuter Date 10.03.17 12:52
The ULEZ will require that bikes meet the emissions standards of EURO 3.  This required that bikes under 150cc must produce no more than:
2.00g/km CO (carbon monoxide) 0.80g/km HC, and 0.15g km NOx

I can't see any of these figures listed anywhere for the C1, just the CO2 figure.  As mentioned in my PM, there are a couple of internet sources that suggest the C1 was EURO 3 compliant but nothing I can see that looks authoritative.

Given that the biggest market for C1s today still seems to be London riders, a lot of owners are going to want to be sure before the charge comes info effect.

Apologies if I've missed someone's previous definitive answer but it would be good to clarify.
Parent - By danny_acs Date 07.04.17 11:32
Has there been a reply yet by BMW? Thanks
Parent - By scootercommuter Date 10.05.17 20:53
Now chased them (BMW Motorrad) up for the fourth time... I'll let everyone know if / when I get an answer.
Parent - By szecsei Date 29.07.17 17:10
Will be very interested to know the outcome of this. A C1 that cannot ride into the centre of London will become a mantlepiece ornament for many people.
Parent By szecsei Date 23.12.17 01:26
On the basis that there have been no responses here, I presume this line of enquiry is dead? The ULEZ in the current CC zone comes into force April 2019, this leaves 16 months of unbridled C1'ing in central London.

The way I see it, the C1's utility in London (and that of many scooters and motorbikes) is of greatest use in the centre, where it saves a lot of money in commuting costs. Outside of the CC zone, both congestion and parking charges are much lower, such that it's not clear cut if the expensive-to-run C1 is actually cheaper to use than a modern city car.
Parent - By Alexbmwc1 Date 29.01.18 13:26 Edited 29.01.18 13:29
Hi,
it looks like the 125cc is compliant after all! See attached and below.

Also you can check your own using the link below:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/vrm-checker-ulez

Regards,
Alex

Parent - By szecsei Date 19.02.18 00:37
Very odd. I checked one bike, registered 2000 as a C1 Executive 125, it is liable for the ULEZ. My 2003 Family Friend (also 125) is NOT liable.

Mechanically speaking these are identical bikes, I fail to see the discrepancy other than the year of registration.....
Parent - By rockstedy Date 19.02.18 16:07
Interesting as checked my both 125 2002 and these are free to go.
Parent - By szecsei Date 19.02.18 17:56
What year were they registered?
Parent - By trojan Date 21.06.18 12:26
Strange.  I have a 200 with an 03 Reg. I ran it through the checker in April and it said "You are not subject to the ULEZ". However I just ran it through again today and it said that it was!  I read somewhere about any bike over 14 years old being caught.  Does anyone have any updates?
Parent - By rockstedy Date 21.06.18 20:03
Did the same on 125 and says that will be charged!!! Doesn’t make sense as checked couple times before and always been excluded.
Parent - By aware Date 21.06.18 20:43
This is very sad news.
Parent - By trojan Date 22.06.18 21:11
I’m afraid I have now had this confirmed by Motortad;

Der  BMW C1 wurde damals nach der Euro-1-Norm für Motorräder homologiert und erfüllt daher nicht die Anforderungen der zum 1. Januar 2006 in Kraft getretenen Euro-3-Norm für Motorräder. Hierfür bitten wir um Verständnis.

And for those of you that don’t speak the lingo;

The C1 was Euro 1 at the time thus does not fill the criteria of the 2006 Euro 3 standards.

Shame.
Parent - By Alexbmwc1 Date 27.06.18 11:10
Hi Trojan,
who gave you this response? It looks a bit like a customer service agent very standard reply without much effort... It would have been better to get the actual emissions results. Of course, it cannot be euro 3 certified as the norm didn't exist. It can, however, be euro 3 compliant. See the link below, a French website list the bike as euro 2 certified! I think the bike may be Euro 3 compliant (early adopter). Who fits a catalytic converter on a scooter if not to have the smallest emissions possible??

https://www.scooter-system.fr/catalog/modele-172-bmw-c1.html

Also, a Wikipedia page, without the source, unfortunately, lists the bike as Euro 3 compliant. It might, however, be a Euro 3 norm for cars, as BMW tried to include this bike into their overall catalogue's stats for emissions, right?

The best option might be to get from BMW the actual emissions tests rather than asking if the bike is Euro 3 certified :-)

I hope we'll be allowed to keep using it in London. The ULEZ measure, even I appreciate the importance of breathing clean air, is a bloody joke! It feels a lot more like a punishment for the poor... New runway in Heathrow and these bloody failed hybrid buses which pollute more than a regular none hybrid bus due to the fact that their batteries don't work is more important to address than banning a few dozens old quirky scooters in London...
Parent - By C1ive Date 27.06.18 21:43
My bikes are still shown as exempt, at least for now.
Parent - By Alexbmwc1 Date 28.06.18 06:07
Hi C1ive,

when is your MOT due? I did the MOT test a few weeks ago on my bike.

Someone I know in London who owns a few C1s WhatsApp me to tell me that his bikes weren't compliant anymore on the tfl website, so I checked mine and it wasn't either... Just after I did the MOT. I wonder if there is a link in here. They don't check the emissions during the MOT for bikes, but I suppose that the system communicates with the DVLA, which feeds the TFL ULEZ checker or something. I'm just speculating here, but this might be why my bike isn't compliant anymore and yours is...

Anyway, someone knows people wt BMW which couldn't give the actual measurements of the emission test they did in the 2000s to get it in line with whatever euro norm they had at the time?

Yesterday I went to an MOT test centre and they agreed to do an emission test for free on my bike. It should take a few minutes and they just insert that sensor from a Bosch machine into the exhaust. Unfortunately, the bike needs to run at around 2500 rpm, so the rear wheel needs to spin, and they didn't have a lift for my bike which could allow the rear wheel to spin so the test didn't happen... I need a lift, then I'll get my bike tested. If the reading is okay, I was thinking about uploading the scan report as a supporting evidence to get the bike exempted of ULEZ charge. But then this is assuming the bike passes the pollution limit for Euro 3 :-)

Alex
Parent - By neill@evo Date 06.07.18 16:42
hi to all. i recently purchased a mot spec gas analyser. and cos i fix these bikes i have a stand / lift and ability of measuring engine speed. i will check a couple of c1's and see what these emissions are and let you know. these c1's have kept me in business since 2005 and i will be upset if sadiq muppet is going to charge them. the only scooter / bike that has passed a crash test, came with a factory cat convertor. will post up in a couple days the results 
Parent By HelmetHair Date 06.07.18 17:12
Top man. Welcome on board!
125 and 200 results would be great. Does your kit do the full range of co/nox co2 etc?
Cheers
Hh
Parent By rockstedy Date 06.07.18 17:44
Excellent news can’t wait for results!
Parent By HelmetHair Date 13.07.18 09:44
Hi Neill,
Any update please?
Parent - By Alexbmwc1 Date 28.06.18 17:22
Hi,

I found two sources online. One is on a French forum, someone explains he received an email stating that the BMW C1 is actually better performing than the Euro 3 norm.

The French post, in a nutshell, explains that the BMW C1 have a better standard than the Euro 3 for a motorcycle. However, at the time the norm didn't exist and only the manufacturer can get the vehicle approved for a new norm. The lady explains that the gov department can't help on this, in a legislative perspective. However, the TFL website clearly states that the ULEZ will be enforced based on the exhaust emissions, not strictly to the Euro 3 norm!

Copy and paste the below in google translate:

réponse très rapide de la DRIEE IF/SECV/CNRV (Centre National de Réception des Véhicules) emis par LE BRIS Evelyne - DRIEE IF/SECV/CNRV/HVL

Bonjour monsieur,

“effectivement votre véhicule a des résultats dignes de la norme euro 4 “
mais malheureusement il n'existe pas de réversibilité en matière de
réception européenne et ce dans les deux sens.
Votre véhicule a été réceptionné sous la directive 97/24 qui fixait les
modalités réglementaires imposées à la date de son homologation.
Aujourd'hui c'est le Règlement Européen 168/2013 qui fixe les règles
d'homologation de véhicules des catégories L.
Il n'y a pas d’équivalences attribuées entre ces directives et
règlements au regard des résultats des performances environnementales de
l'unité de propulsion. Seul le constructeur peut procéder à une demande
d'homologation de son véhicule suivant la réglementation applicable
aujourd'hui (euro 4).
Nous n'avons aucune solution réglementaire permettant de vous attribuer
une homologation répondant aux normes exigées actuellement aux véhicules
de catégorie L.
Cordialement

The other is from a book talking about the CLEVER project, from someone who used a BMW C2 engine with a Catalityc exhaust and achieved a better result than the Euro 4 norm.

http://forum.bmwc1.free.fr/viewtopic.***?f=1&t=3010&hilit=euro&sid=212fabc6d530d6a1e0569f5334af5ba0&start=20

P53-54 for the book

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=pHJmSsYMNO8C&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=bmw+c1+exhaust+emissions&source=bl&ots=iuHxhy8tno&sig=qJQFa_gtQak0y12CJl2wBicbIeI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjFh5b36_bbAhXEQBQKHSS9ALA4ChDoAQg-MAI#v=onepage&q=bmw%20c1%20exhaust%20emissions&f=false

To conclude, if the BMW C1 isn't allowed anymore it will be a shame as the bike is compliant with Euro 3, even maybe Euro 4.

I think what is needed is an exhaust reading, or to get the bike certified somehow by a European lab that does the compliance.

Regards,
Alex
Parent - By HelmetHair Date 02.07.18 12:34 Edited 02.07.18 12:38
After a biut of searching, I found the RAC helpfully states the Euro 3 standards:
Euro 3 (EC2000)
The warm-up period was removed from the test procedure.

Euro 3 emissions standards (petrol)
CO: 2.3g/km
THC: 0.20g/km
NOx: 0.15g/km

Is this any help? Do you know what the C1 levels are, for 125 or 200?
And I have to say I'm bnot convinced these levels are the same for motorcycles-they are stated as being for cars.
Parent - By Alexbmwc1 Date 04.07.18 13:30
Hi HelmetHair,

actually, you might have them! See below post from 2009:

http://c1forum.co.uk/cgi-bin/topic_show.pl?pid=97342;hl=certificate

Could you check your certificate and see if the emissions are listed on it?

Kind regards,
Alex
Parent - By HelmetHair Date 05.07.18 10:11
i'm afraid that certificate has long since left my hands-but judging from this link it looks liek you are right, and it does contain the info we need

https://www.motor-talk.de/bilder/partikelemission-x1-benziner-im-coc-g77602846/cci30102017-2-i209001134.html

so has anyone got one?
You could try CLive-ACTD or dig around the internet for a COC for a c1....im flat out at work today so cant do more...
Parent - By Alexbmwc1 Date 05.07.18 12:23
Hi HelmetHair,

I emailed BMW directly at eccoc@bmw.co.uk and they replied (within a day!) asking for the VIN, which I sent.

I'll just buy it and hopefully, it will show the actual emissions. Then, the usual debate is that the bike is Euro 1 (2002), but if the emissions are within the Euro 3 limit then TFL must (hopefully) exempt the bike. After all they did say "Declared Emissions" rather than Euro standard or age!

By the way, the limits you posted for the Euro 3 car are very close to the Euro 3 for Motorcycle. For actual limits of the Euro 3 motorcycle use the second link and jump straight to page 8.

sources:

Euro 1 Motorcycle

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:31997L0024

Euro 3 Motorcycle

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html?uri=cellar:df192962-66a9-45ef-bdd9-33e609632388.0004.02/DOC_1&format=PDF

Kind regards,
Alex
Parent By HelmetHair Date 05.07.18 18:44
Good stuff. Can't wait for the response!
Of course, I bet TfL would ask for CoCs for every c1 and not allow a blanket exemption based on one!
Parent - By HelmetHair Date 13.07.18 09:45
Hi Alex,
Any update please?
Parent - By Alexbmwc1 Date 13.07.18 17:22
Hi,

indeed I received some news, it seems that BMW is not being very cooperative:

Dear Sir/Madam,
                                                                                                                                                                                
Thank you for your e-mail.

Your motorbike was produced in 2002 and at that time the CO2 calculation on your vehicle was not an EU/ UK CoC requirement, the CO2 requirement has only recently come into play. Unfortunately, we have no record of the CO2 emissions of your vehicle.

It is with regret we cannot be of greater assistance.

Kind regards,
The Homologation Team

BMW Group
United Kingdom
Homologation Department
Summit ONE
Summit Avenue, Farnborough
Hampshire, GU14 0FB
Email : eccoc@bmw.co.uk

At this point I don't know what else to do really.

Alex
Parent - By HelmetHair Date 13.07.18 17:37
Shame. But what does the certificate show for the other readings?
If Neill at evo measures the co2 we are back in business.
Parent By aware Date 13.07.18 18:59
I am not in your shoes (at least for now) but how much would it cost for a simple co2 measurement?
This is the start of all hope IMHO.

Regards
Parent - By Alexbmwc1 Date 15.07.18 16:48
I believe that the co2 is linked to the road tax. Ulez is linked, from what I understand, to the harmful polluant like NOx. I didn't order the coc as it costs 120 pounds and I don't really need one if it does not show the emissions readings.
I do believe that BMW isn't being very cooperative in this to be honnest. I worked for big companies where everything is being logged and stored, I doubt BMW is an exepction.
Anyway, over to you for now :-)
Alex
Parent - By HelmetHair Date 15.07.18 17:29
Ah shame.
Both mine are mothballed and I don't ride in any zones any more.
So I'm afraid it's back to the London commuters to figure it out if they are bothered-so far it seems it's just you and me, and I'm out!

I'd start by trying to find a COC. Somebody must have bought one more recently than me. Then check the figures that are on it. It might even be available from an EU owner who has registered one in a different country.  Variobob springs to mind as he is enormously well informed.
Parent - By Alexbmwc1 Date 16.07.18 12:21
Very good points!
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